Written by charliedean
Topics: Ideas
I’m doing some research this afternoon, preparing for Lent, and I was looking for a good quotation on worship. Somehow, instead, I found this quotation attributed to Oscar Wilde,
Between men and women there is no friendship possible. There is passion, enmity, worship, love, but no friendship.
I’m curious… what do you think? I’m not so sure.
And if you have an opinion, why?
Posted on 12 January 2010
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Once my wife asked me who my best friend was. I answered, “I guess i would say my Dad or Jeff.” She was offended that I didn’t say her. In my defense, for some reason, I didn’t think of someone of the opposite gender (i.e. her) as a friend. So maybe my intuitive answer is what Oscar has in mind. It’s possible for us to be in all kinds of relationships, but friendship – simple friendship – seems to elude us. Why? Because men and women always seem to be looking for something from the other. We are looking for someone to utter that cheesy line from that movie to; “You complete me!” If I’m always asking myself if the other is that person those who don’t measure up will never be simply friends, they failed the test, and the one who does is more than a friend. And once you say it to someone, every other person of the opposite sex could be possible proof that you said it to the wrong person, so don’t get too close. Not sure if that passes for anything close to an answer, but it’s better than the one we hear in When Harry Met Sally.
So I’ve often wondered this. Can there be an honest friendship between guys and girls. I know on my end I have friends that I want absolutely nothing more with, but is that how they feel about me?
Once I read your quote I got to thinking. Isn’t friendship made from love and only exists by love? Not romantic love but the agape kind? I’d like to hope that between guys and girls there can be friendship, otherwise I don’t know what to call half of my relationships in life
Hey, I love “When Harry Met Sally” !!!!!
Oscar Wilde probably had no female friends. He lived in a different time and culture. Maybe it wasn’t appropriate for males and females to be friends. But, I’m glad our culture has changed … friendships are possible between both!
And the whole point of that movie is not really “can men & women be friends” … but rather. it’s their realization that best friends make the best kind of romantic pair!
Actually, now that I think of it, I think Oscar Wilde was trying to say that men and women can’t be friends because one of them will probably always want something more. Which means, he probably just wanted to have sex.
I know with certainty that friendship between men and women happen.. I have had closer and most honest friendships with men…I have felt closer and more relaxed with my male friends then I ever have with the females in my life..Can’t explain it.. Just is
i’m gonna have to agree with sarah on this one.
not just because she’s my best friend, but because i’m also having sex with her.
harry + sally = marriage prep class
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFWGOKuFyjk
I think that within the heterosexual paradigm (and we all live in that world unless we willingly throw it off to shift our perspective), it is very difficult for men and women to be friends. This is going to sound crude, and it’s not true in all cases, but in my experience and observation: when a man and woman are “friends,” the man actually desires a sexual/romantic relationship and the woman does not, but the attention and fidelity feel like friendship to her and she likes it. The man simultaneouly accepts that nothing will happen with the woman and always hopes that something will. In my feminist heart I do believe that men and women can transcend this model through self-reflection, self-control, and honesty.
I also agree with Becky that Oscar Wilde lived in a time very different than our own, and a non-sexual, non-marital relationship with a woman would have been more difficult then than now.
my immediate reaction was the same as Leslie’s, if this is true, what do i call a third of the relationships in my life? i love all of my male friends, but not in a romantic way, in a brother way. in fact when i think about my oldest friendships, more than half of them are with men.
all that to say that i wholeheartedly agree with Sarah and Eric, that your best friend would make the best spouse. because no matter how attracted you are to a person, when you have bad times you want a friend there not just someone who is hot. you want someone you enjoy spending time with around all the time, not just someone you enjoy looking at.
a couple more thoughts…to stir the pot a little.
Doesn’t When Harry Met Sally (and the Chapmans, as well), affirm Wilde’s quotation. Eric confirmed what I think we all assumed – that he’s sleeping with his best friend. I’m sure Wilde would have just nodded and said, “exactly my point.”
Sarah – agreed – especially your last line. In my feminist heart, I agree with you, that we can transcend.
As I read this quote yesterday, and then followed all the comments last night, one of the things I wondered is if the fact that I’ve been married almost 14 years has changed my perspective. I think, when I was younger, I would have tended to agree more w/ Wilde. But now, as a happily married man, I think friendships with women don’t have the same tensions.
Actually – I would find it very interesting to read comments from MARRIED men and women who had meaningful friendships with people of the opposite sex and after you got married, did your friendships change?
Becky,
Before I was married I did have 2 close friends who were women. One of them I still talk to once in a very blue moon when we run into each other. I have no idea where the other one is. She got married after I did and we are no longer friends. Since that time, I have not developed any friendships with women other than my wife that I would call close. I know my wife’s friends, we talk, I’m polite, they’re nice. But we are friends because of my wife and not apart from my wife. I work with women in the church and we have good relationships, but I would not say that we are friends in the sense that we are talking about it here.
I would push us not to write off Wilde as a by-product of another era. I think he may hit on something that transcends time. Those of you who conclude that the best marriages end up starting with friendships actually prove the point I was making. You could make the case that the friendship continued to progress because the door was open for something more than friendship. You can’t argue that the door wasn’t open because when the friends get married it is proof that it was. What I’m saying is – once that door is closed, the friendship dies!
I am really enjoying others comments on this. Especially around one of my favorite films…
What a great movie! I think that friends of the opposite sex gets into a gray area that just depends on the couple and the comfort level of your partner/husband/wife. It’s definitely a zone of caution though, with big yellow and black diagonal stripes.
A friend of mine is married and has maintained a close relationship with a woman who he refers to as his “best friend”. I’ve always felt that it must create some tension with his wife. I don’t think there are too many married people who would feel OK with being the “second best friend” to their spouse.
“What I’m saying is – once that door is closed, the friendship dies!”
i don’t agree with this due to personal experience. i have shared with a close friend that i had feelings for him, he did not and 8 years later he is still a close friend. i have also been in the reverse role, had a friend tell me he had feelings for me, i did not and we are still friends. did it take a little extra work to maintain that friendship? yes. Would it have been “easier” to let the freindship die? not in the long run, because i would have cut someone i care about out of my life. In my experience, if you really care about the person, and you are both willing to work through it…the friendhsip doesn’t have to die just because the door has closed.
of the people i know commenting here, none of you are married except my wife. the rest of you…i don’t know you so i didn’t read your comments in depth anyway.
so, from a married dude’s perspective, it boils down to this for me; “am i willing to risk it?”
that’s sort of extreme, but i think it’s useful to take things to their logical extreme when making a decision. “could something damaging come from talking to the new girl at the office?” not “will something” but “could something?” is there a possibility? yeah, if you adhere to the “lusting in your heart is sin just as touching another person you’re not married to” school of thought.
so why risk it? just put this little hedge up and keep a reasonable distance from the opposite gender. my marriage is more important than going out to drinks after work with the group if “she” is going to be there. there’s no female worth the risk.
*just to be clear…there’s no “she” at work, so don’t worry sarah.
that’s just an example.
Whew – heavy stuff, everyone. My two cents is this. First, I have a significant number of very close guy friends and know for a fact that neither of us want that to go farther. Second, when one of those guys gets into a relationship I have found that the most effective way to keep that relationship on any level is to befriend the girl, on her own merit and not as a means to an end. Third, as a single woman this tension sucks because I generally connect intellectually more with men and I try to be very careful in friendship with married men (here I agree with Eric’s last post wholeheartedly).
But most importantly, I think this subject challenges how much we really buy the idea that we are living the Kingdom of God now and that redemption is already happening and should be reflected in the relationships within the Church. Before we are men or women, before we are married or single, before we are democratic or republican, we are human. We are children of God and organically wired for meaningful relationship. Some of the most significant relationships in my life are with married men – some of them in their sixties and up. The challenge is to keep our minds and hearts pure and desiring holiness (really, to fear the Lord) to a level that honors marriage and chastity (heart, mind and body) and protects us all from the damaging effects of sin.
So in conclusion, I love “When Harry Met Sally” but am not sure I agree with its worldview
And do we really mean it when we say that we are a redeemed community living out the Kingdom principles on earth?
I am married. I do have male friends.
I would not, however, be inclined to go out to coffee with any of them and talk, one-on-one. I agree with Eric in that my first priority is to vehemently protect my marriage. Getting too close to another man has the potential to stir up feelings and/or thoughts that are not holy.
Oscar Wilde was gay, if I’m not mistaken, so I don’t think that he’s saying that sexual tension is the factor that prevents men and women from having true friendship.
My experience is that friendship between two people of opposite gender is possible. “Friendship” is just a word, anyway. We use it to describe a relationship that involves a certain level of committment, trust, and connection. I don’t think that sex interferes with friendship, unless the friendship is simply a smokescreen used to get sex from somebody.
When you insert marriage into the picture, a measure of wisdom is needed in order to protect the marriage. I have MY friends, Elise has HER friends, and we have OUR friends, if that makes sense. MY friends are all male, as far as I can think of. HER friends are all female, more or less. OUR friends are a mix of both. Elise and I both are very comfortable and close to both men and women in that group. I would have no problem with Elise meeting my friend David for coffee…unless I was free and just not invited, in which case I would feel left out:)
I’m not willing to put up a hedge of not befriending women just because something COULD happen. That’s ruling out a lot of potential friends. But I won’t develop a close friendship with another woman unless she falls into the category of OUR friends, and is equally good friends with Elise.