Here’s a thought experiment for you. I’m hoping for some vigorous discussion, but before I ask the question, let me set it up for you by giving you a rough timeline of events:
- A couple weeks ago, Joel Osteen appeared on Piers Morgan Tonight. Apparently, during the interview, Morgan predictably tried to trip up Osteen and pushed him on the subject of same-sex unions. At one point, Morgan asked Osteen if he would be willing to attend a same-sex ceremony. Osteen hemmed and hawed but basically said he would attend out of respect for the relationship.
- Surprising no one, Al Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky took Osteen to task asserting that for a minister to even attend a same-sex ceremony amounts to “a massive statement of ministerial malpractice.”
- Then, last week on Out of Ur (a blog for The Leadership Journal, a journal for pastors, that in my opinion has a fairly conservative, evangelical readership), they posted an article titled, “Would You Attend a Same-Sex Ceremony?”
- Apparently Mohler got wind of the blog piece and responded to it.
- Today, Out of Ur followed up to the original post.
Got it? Clear as mud? You can post comments on all the various posts, if you’d like. But, there was an interesting paragraph in the second Out of Ur post, that made me go “hmmmmm,” and I’m curious about your opinions:
Finally, what about same-sex divorce? With more states legalizing these marriages, it’s only a matter of time before some of them are dissolved. Is that something Christians should celebrate–the correcting of a theological error? Or is it a case of two wrongs not making things right?
I’d really love to hear your thoughts. Looking down the road…if you don’t believe in same-sex unions, do you think clergy should advise divorce – the severing of a relationship? Is this an actual case of two wrongs making a right?
Twitter Updates
Whoa, that is interesting. I hadn’t thought about it and now I want to read those articles. We’ve been asked if we’d photograph a same sex wedding. Mostly by our super conservative A/G family and we said probably. The reason we would say no isn’t for moral reasons though.
I can’t imagine a minister suggesting a divorce. It doesn’t seem to solve “the problem” if they think the problem is being gay.
Okay, a couple of disclaimers.
1) It’s late, and I should be in bed reading, instead of typing. But you wanted a vigorous discussion, and I wanted to help, and this is the only time I could write, so….
2) I didn’t read all the linked blog posts. I’m only hitting the excerpted quote.
3) I’m going to be all logical and not address emotions. This is a significant disclaimer, because…well…a correct answer delivered coldly is still a cold answer.
That all being said….
A homosexual union is not a marriage as defined by God. The union of a man and a woman is marriage. A homosexual union is something else. Calling it a marriage doesn’t make it so. It’s more akin to a heterosexual “living together” arrangement. Yes, it’s a sexual relationship. There may even be some sort of commitment. (More on this in a moment). But that doesn’t make it a marriage.
(Quick dodge: I’m not addressing polygamy here, though I’d argue in the New Covenant era in which we live, the fuller revelation that we’ve received [e.g. the teaching in Ephesians 5 on the role of marriage as a reflection of the relationship between Christ and His Church] allows no room for polygamy.)
As a result, the separation of a homosexual union is not a divorce, since you have to be married to be divorced. Again, this would be equally true of a heterosexual couple living together. Separating would not be a divorce.
Both of these are examples of illegitimate sexual relationships–in other words, sexual immorality–which need to be dissolved. Paul is quite clear in Ephesians 5:5 “For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.”
Now, saying all that, I want to allow for the emotions here. Saying that a relationship is immoral doesn’t mean that it is non-existent. There really is a relationship, and we’re really calling for it to be dissolved, and that really hurts. It would be far too easy to say to two gay men, “Well, you just need to stop it, and that’s that.” Really? That’s that? Like it or not, these two men have shared something of their lives together. They’ve been sexually intimate with each other. How are they to relate to each other now? If all we say to them is “Stop boinking each other”, then we have failed them.
So, yes, part of repenting of homosexuality is a dissolving of that relationship (again, just like a live-in boyfriend needs to move out), but I’m uncomfortable with the language of celebration per se in this case, as it seems like celebrating a win over those “dirty queers” instead of a genuine rejoicing at the repentance of one sinner. Instead, we need to see the dissolving of the relationship as the beginning of that relationship being redeemed in Christ. Now that is worth celebrating.
i hesitate to respond b/c i think – i am not sure if my opinion even matters or should be given – but sean and i have wrestled through this at great length – some of our good neighbor friends are lesbians – we love their two little boys – they play with our kids – they are our friends –
for us it is not a matter of going to a marriage ceremony if there was one – or celebrating a divorce or separation if there was one – how can we answer that unless in the particular situation? to me this is where the point in all of this is missed – the wrong questions are being asked – bottom line w/ us – they know we care about them a ton – - they know how we feel about homosexuality – they know Jesus loves them –
most evangelicals try to answer these questions as black/white issues IN ADDITION to having absolutely NO relationships with unbelievers of any significance – - it seems to me Jesus went against culture- and got criticized for it an awful lot and that is who i want to model my life after – not what stamp or “message” i am sending – it is not a black and white issue –
i don’t “agree” with them having a child – but i went to the baby shower – i don’t “agree” with them having another child (or think that is “best”) but we buy that kid gifts and celebrate at b-day parties –
the bigger picture of all this is being missed (to me) which is – maybe instead of trying to answer “would you attend a lesbian/gay marriage” evangelicals should be asked “will you cross your street and talk to your lesbian and gay neighbors?”
charlie – you know i rarely post on your blog – and again – not sure here – BUT – we are pretty passionate about this – i am weary of the theory of evangelism with no relationship with people
@mandy – Mandy, beautiful response. Thank you. I’ll try to send you a private email later – there’s more I want to tell you.
well charlie – i feel badly b/c i don’t want to intrude on your posts b/c i know this is more for people you are working w/ at church, etc… so i am sorry
for that but do enjoy checking in and hearing what you have to say – this just resonates w/ me i guess b/c i want to say to the pastors of the world who make these kinds of statments – - “Do you REALLY have any lesbian or gays who would actually ask you to do a ceremony? Are you really in deep enough of relationship with any sinners who would want you to be involved at that intimate of a level??” B/c until that is the case i am not sure they should even be asking the questions (ALL OPINION – but 
thanks again – i’ll stay off of here now
First… post as much as you’d like. I love it.. doesn’t matter who!
And, you’re so right. Too much of the rhetoric on blogs & coming from the pulpits is theoretical… having friends who are the “other” changes us.
Good stuff!
(there’s a chance we might be passing through ATL in the spring… we’ve GOT to meet up!)
would looooooove it!!!! let us know!!!
A few quick comments…primarily in response to Seth.
When two people have a wedding in a faith-based ceremony they actually take part in two marriages. One is the union before God and the other is the one that the county clerk records when s/he receives a signed marriage license. So, by definition, marriage is a commitment.
While the marriage that two gay people enter into may or may not be ordained by God, the legal contract they sign is something altogether different from the spiritual union (that many gay people choose to enter). Divorces are primarily legal mechanisms. When couples–gay or straight–get divorced they do so at the courthouse rather than at an alter with the clergy person who blessed their relationship. For this reason, it seems that the severing of this legal contract is in fact a divorce and something much different from two people–gay or straight–who just live together (albeit, “legal” gay marriages have very little legal standing with DOMA on the books).
I’m not quite sure why your focus is on the sexual relationship of the hypothetical gay couples. I would imagine that gay people make a marital commitment out of love, legal necessity, and spiritual meaning. Many are older men and women who do so in hopes that they aren’t denied hospital visitations or the estate of a longtime partner as they near the end of their lives. They may or may not have sex (not to say that older people don’t have satisfying sex lives!)…and certainly don’t need a wedding to certify it.
We seem to be conditioned to believe that new testament references to “sexual immorality” are “quite clear.” But often, as is the case in the verse in Ephesians, Paul gives no particulars of what constitutes sexual immorality. Since the time of Paul the church has had an evolving view of what falls into the category of sexual immorality, including miscegenation, oral sex, and non-procreative. I don’t share this to take a position on whether or not homosexuality is sinful, but to demonstrate that references to “sexual immorality” are not nearly as clear and unchanging as we imagine. The automatic association of homosexuality and sexual immorality seems to be far more attributable to (contemporary) men than to Paul, Jesus, and/or scripture.
@CJ –
Have you read Dale Martin’s “Sex and the Single Savior”? Its quite good, and from your post I think you might like it.
Best
- Ross